Sunday, 30 September 2012

Re: [cactuswings 1977] Re: [] Boeing frame identification help! Everett

Thank you all for your input. I appreciate the help! 
When I finish completing the info I will post full log.

Thank you,
Rafal


From: Chaz Hinkle <chazzer@webzealot.com>
To: "cactus-wings@googlegroups.com" <cactus-wings@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "WashBaltSpotters@yahoogroups.com" <WashBaltSpotters@yahoogroups.com>; "cactus-wings@googlegroups.com" <cactus-wings@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [cactuswings 1976] Re: [] Boeing frame identification help! Everett

The combi was a stand alone section as I recall... Built as a demonstrator of some sort... It was never part of a full numbered airframe IIRC...

On Sep 30, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Alexandre <aavrane@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> 787 - not the fatigue test airframe (ZY998) which had windows:
> http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/files/library/787fatiguemove-big.jpg
> nor the static airframe (ZY997) which was in primer:
> http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q2/080425a_pr.html
> so must be another one
>
> 747 - N747BN, ex JAL. Note a slice is missing aft of the cockpit, that was shipped to the Science Museum in London:
> http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/aeronautics/1992-823.aspx
>
> 777 - probably fatigue test airframe
>
> 747-400 Combi - unidentified, possibly a section built on purpose; looks similar to N401PW with additional Combi titles; also here:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/316239692/
>
>
> Alexandre.
> AeroTransport Data Bank
> http://www.aerotransport.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rafal S wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> I need help identifying 4 biggest fuselages on this shot. It was taken couple of weeks ago at PAE.
>> Any help greatly appreciated
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/26545158@N02/8025047050/
>> Thanks,
>> Rafal.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cactuswings" group.
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Read More :- "Re: [cactuswings 1977] Re: [] Boeing frame identification help! Everett"

{coyotes} NHL, LOCKED-OUT PLAYERS MEET FOR THIRD STRAIGHT DAY

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NEW YORK -- The NHL and the players' association met for a third straight day Sunday, and again avoided the troublesome money issues that are fueling the ongoing lockout.

"We did not discuss core economic issues, as was the plan," NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr said after meeting for five hours with the NHL. "We discussed health and safety, drug testing, including more discussion of drug testing, medical care etc. Also a number of things in the CBA legal area of player movements."

The drug policy was a key component of talks Friday when the sides got together for the first time since the NHL imposed the lockout on Sept. 16.

On Saturday, the sides focused on clarifications of definitions of what makes up hockey-related revenue -- a pot that exceeded $3 billion.

"It was a productive day. We made some progress in some areas," Fehr said Sunday. "I would say it's good that we were talking. It's true that we could've done this last week or a week before or a week before that, but it's a lot better than doing it three weeks from now."

Because of difficulty in finding common ground on how to split up that money, the league and union instead concentrated all weekend on secondary issues that will also be included in any new agreement.

"I hate to sound like a broken record, but we need some movement on the economic issues. We need some movement on the system issues," NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said. "We need them to be scheduled as the subject of a meeting, and right now the union is not prepared to do that."

Negotiations on Sunday were conducted at the league office without NHLPA Executive Director Donald Fehr and NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman. They met privately Friday and Saturday, away from the other group negotiations.

"I think that may demonstrate more than anything else the nature of the issues we're talking about," Daly said about the absences of Bettman and Donald Fehr. "We're really talking about kind of micro issues, issues we deal with on a day-to-day basis that don't necessarily rise to the commissioner's level or the executive director's level.

"So they will be at the table when we're talking about the issues that are really going to get this deal done or not."

There was a thought that talks might continue Monday, but that doesn't seem likely as the NHL wants to meet internally with its clubs before getting back together with the players' association.

"We covered a lot of things over the last three days," Daly said. "We both have a lot of homework projects to do and drafts we owe each other on certain things. We think (Monday) would be best used for that purpose.

"What we did today, and the last two days, I don't think any of that is going to get a deal done. But they are all necessary elements of the deal."

There is no timetable for talks to resume, but Tuesday is a possibility.

The entire preseason slate of games was cancelled by the NHL on Thursday, and regular-season games -- scheduled to begin Oct. 11 -- could soon be called off, too.

The NHL cancelled the entire 2004-05 season because of a lockout that eventually led to the collective bargaining agreement that expired this month.

By working on secondary agreements now, the sides are ahead of where they were back in 2005 when a deal was finally finished.

"All the stuff we've done the last three days were things we did after we had resolved the economic issues, and this one is not playing out that way," Daly said. "We'll have to see how it plays out."

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Read More :- "{coyotes} NHL, LOCKED-OUT PLAYERS MEET FOR THIRD STRAIGHT DAY"

Re: [cactuswings 1976] Re: [] Boeing frame identification help! Everett

The combi was a stand alone section as I recall... Built as a demonstrator of some sort... It was never part of a full numbered airframe IIRC...

On Sep 30, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Alexandre <aavrane@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> 787 - not the fatigue test airframe (ZY998) which had windows:
> http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/files/library/787fatiguemove-big.jpg
> nor the static airframe (ZY997) which was in primer:
> http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q2/080425a_pr.html
> so must be another one
>
> 747 - N747BN, ex JAL. Note a slice is missing aft of the cockpit, that was shipped to the Science Museum in London:
> http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/aeronautics/1992-823.aspx
>
> 777 - probably fatigue test airframe
>
> 747-400 Combi - unidentified, possibly a section built on purpose; looks similar to N401PW with additional Combi titles; also here:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/316239692/
>
>
> Alexandre.
> AeroTransport Data Bank
> http://www.aerotransport.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rafal S wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> I need help identifying 4 biggest fuselages on this shot. It was taken couple of weeks ago at PAE.
>> Any help greatly appreciated
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/26545158@N02/8025047050/
>> Thanks,
>> Rafal.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cactuswings" group.
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>

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Read More :- "Re: [cactuswings 1976] Re: [] Boeing frame identification help! Everett"

Re: [cactuswings 1975] Re: [] Boeing frame identification help! Everett

Hi Alexandre & Rafel

This could be the 787 test fuselage barrel (ZY901) which was moved 
too the area in 2011. I can't think it could be anything else.

Cheers
Stan


From: Alexandre <aavrane@gmail.com>
To: WashBaltSpotters@yahoogroups.com; cactus-wings@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 30 September 2012, 23:52
Subject: [cactuswings 1974] Re: [] Boeing frame identification help! Everett


787 - not the fatigue test airframe (ZY998) which had windows:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/files/library/787fatiguemove-big.jpg
nor the static airframe (ZY997) which was in primer:
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q2/080425a_pr.html
so must be another one

747 - N747BN, ex JAL. Note a slice is missing aft of the cockpit, that was shipped to the Science Museum in London:
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/aeronautics/1992-823.aspx

777 - probably fatigue test airframe

747-400 Combi - unidentified, possibly a section built on purpose; looks similar to N401PW with additional Combi titles; also here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/316239692/


Alexandre.
AeroTransport Data Bank
http://www.aerotransport.org







Rafal S wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I need help identifying 4 biggest fuselages on this shot. It was taken couple of weeks ago at PAE.
> Any help greatly appreciated
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/26545158@N02/8025047050/
>
>
> Thanks,
> Rafal.
>
>
>

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Read More :- "Re: [cactuswings 1975] Re: [] Boeing frame identification help! Everett"

[cactuswings 1974] Re: [] Boeing frame identification help! Everett

787 - not the fatigue test airframe (ZY998) which had windows:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/files/library/787fatiguemove-big.jpg
nor the static airframe (ZY997) which was in primer:
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q2/080425a_pr.html
so must be another one

747 - N747BN, ex JAL. Note a slice is missing aft of the cockpit, that was shipped to the Science Museum in London:
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/aeronautics/1992-823.aspx

777 - probably fatigue test airframe

747-400 Combi - unidentified, possibly a section built on purpose; looks similar to N401PW with additional Combi titles; also here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/316239692/


Alexandre.
AeroTransport Data Bank
http://www.aerotransport.org







Rafal S wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I need help identifying 4 biggest fuselages on this shot. It was taken
> couple of weeks ago at PAE.
> Any help greatly appreciated
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/26545158@N02/8025047050/
>
>
> Thanks,
> Rafal.
>
>
>

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Read More :- "[cactuswings 1974] Re: [] Boeing frame identification help! Everett"

Re: [cactuswings 1973] PAE stored frames help

Hi Rafal,
 
Very nice graph, we had a drive round there last year & the ex-UA 747 is actually ex JAL JA8118/N747BN (20782) which was used for structural testing by Boeing, not my photo but this is a recent shot of it
 
 
I assume that the Silver 777 & White Dreamliner(?) frames are both static test airframes. Assume you also saw the other static Dreamliner frame in the big blue outdoor structure across the road from the ones on your photo?
 
Matt
 
In a message dated 30/09/2012 21:52:57 GMT Daylight Time, tipekusair@yahoo.com writes:
Hi All,

I need help identifying stored Boeing fuselages at PAE airport.
Especially ex-UA 747 and that silver B777 frame.

Here is my picture from couple of weeks ago.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26545158@N02/8025047050/


Thanks,
Rafal

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Read More :- "Re: [cactuswings 1973] PAE stored frames help"

[cactuswings 1972] PAE stored frames help

Hi All,

I need help identifying stored Boeing fuselages at PAE airport.
Especially ex-UA 747 and that silver B777 frame.

Here is my picture from couple of weeks ago.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26545158@N02/8025047050/


Thanks,
Rafal

Read More :- "[cactuswings 1972] PAE stored frames help"

[cactuswings 1972] REQ: Huey Serials at Melbourne, FL

Hi

Does anyone have an upto date list of the Hueys outside at Melbourne, FL

Thanks

Paul

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{coyotes} NHL, locked-out players meet for 3rd straight day

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http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/gO.KfQ_IfbxQdu5pnyylKg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD00MDQ7cT04NTt3PTUxMg--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/Sports/ap/201209281110402247689-p2.jpeg

NEW YORK (AP) -- The NHL and the Players' Association are meeting for the third straight day to try to resolve the lockout.

The sides met for about four hours Saturday, and they agreed to meet again Sunday. The agenda likely will include discussions on health and safety issues.

Core economic issues still weren't on the agenda Saturday when the opposing groups got together again at the NHL office.

Sunday's talks came three days after the league canceled the remaining preseason games. The regular season is scheduled to start Oct. 11.

If a deal isn't reached soon, regular-season games will be in danger of being lost. The NHL canceled the entire 2004-05 season because of a lockout that eventually led to the collective bargaining agreement that expired this month.

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[cactuswings 1970] Storage News

Hi all
 
This weeks movers.
 
Victorville
 
TAM9400    A320    arrived Sep 26 from Caracas via Miami = PT-MZJ
 
UAL6877    B735    departed Sep 27 to Tupelo = N938UA
 
Mojave
 
SOO9704    B742    arrived Sep 28 from Portsmouth Intl (PSM) = N704SA
 
Marana
 
ABD690P    B742    arrived Sep 28 from Luxembourg via Tucson = TF-ATX
 
N487AA    MD82    made local test flights Sep 27 & 28
 
DAL9931    B763    arrived Sep 26 from Atlanta
 
N487AA    MD82    arrived Sep 25 from Tulsa
 
N487AA    MD82    departed Sep 28 to Tulsa
 
N834AC    B744    departed Sep 25 to Rome (RME)
 
Kingman
 
COM3235    CRJ1    arrived Sep 29 from Cincinnati
 
COM3235    CRJ1    arrived Sep 28 from Cincinnati
 
SWA8700    B733    arrived Sep 27 from Dallas DAL
 
Goodyear
 
UAL6876    B762    arrived Sep 25 from Piedmont Triad (GSO) = N76151
 
Tupelo
 
N767PF    B763    arrived Sep 28 from Anchorage, flew Bangkok (BKK) - Anchorage Sep 27
 
That's all
 
Dave
Read More :- "[cactuswings 1970] Storage News"

Saturday, 29 September 2012

{coyotes} FEHR, BETTMAN HOLD SECOND STRAIGHT DAY OF PRIVATE TALKS

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NEW YORK -- The best that can be said about back-to-back days of negotiations between the NHL and the locked out players' association is that the sides are still talking and making more plans to meet yet again.

While core economic issues still weren't on the agenda Saturday when the opposing groups got together again at the NHL office, dialogue continued on secondary topics that will ultimately go toward forming a new collective bargaining agreement.

NHL Players' Association head Donald Fehr and NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman held a second round of private talks Saturday in an effort to move closer to an agreement that would end the ongoing lockout.

While negotiating teams from the union and the league discussed definitions of what makes up hockey-related revenue -- the pool of money the sides are trying to figure out how to split up -- Fehr and Bettman talked about the differences that are keeping the sides apart.

"I spent a few minutes with Gary talking about the overall situation, and we agreed to keep in touch," Fehr said Saturday. "I am sure we will talk again (Sunday). I don't know whether will meet again (Sunday). That remains to be seen.

"I am not going to talk about the specifics, but in general we're trying to discuss how do we find a way to make an agreement. How do we bridge the gap on the major issues that are between us."

The sides met for about four hours before finishing Saturday, and they agreed to meet again on Sunday. The agenda likely will include discussions on health and safety issues -- a topic that made up a chunk of Friday's talks -- and miscellaneous legal things, such as grievances, game tickets and other topics.

Clarifications as to what will fall under the umbrella of hockey-related revenue going forward in the next agreement dominated discussions Saturday. No concrete resolutions were made, and the topic could be revisited on Sunday.

"I am not sure if we have identified discrepancies," NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said. "I think the nature of what we were trying to do today was to create certainty on interpretations we've had over seven years of this CBA operation.

"These meetings are necessary but they have been described as the underbrush, and certainly they aren't the main issues that need to be tackled to get a deal."

The sides talked for a second straight day on matters separate from the core economic issues that ultimately will have to be hammered out. In the recently expired collective bargaining agreement between the league and the union, the players received a 57 per cent share of hockey-related revenue.

The NHL wants to cut the number down to under 50 per cent in the new deal. The league imposed a lockout on Sept. 16, when the previous agreement ran out, and the sides didn't meet again until Friday.

"Their position on the big stuff has been that a major move consists of changing the players' share from a reduction of 24 per cent to 17 1/2 per cent," Fehr said. "Our initial proposal made a move in their direction. We have amplified that by giving them several different ideas to consider about how to lengthen the agreement to how to be more in line with what they wanted."

Fehr said discussing what exactly makes up hockey-related revenue is significant, because that will determine how much money is there to be divided.

"Today was mainly on HRR issues: definitions, clarifications and so forth," NHL Players' Association special counsel Steve Fehr said. "We had a frank exchange of views. We each expressed our positions in terms of some potential changes and how we thought the current agreement was working."

He wasn't ready to call Saturday's meeting a reason for optimism yet.

"It's a positive thing that we are talking when we weren't talking for some time," he said. "We could be talking about other things, so I'm not sure I'd go there.

"We're continuing the dialogue. It's very much an up-and-down process, so it's hard to say. It's good that we're talking and we're going to talk again tomorrow, hopefully for quite a while."

Some progress was made on Friday on secondary issues related to player safety and drug testing, areas that weren't expected to be contentious. The league and union held two sessions then that totalled about five hours and included an initial meeting between Bettman and Fehr.

At least they got back to talking -- which hadn't happened since a few days before the NHL locked out its players.

All of the issues, big and small, must be ironed out before hockey can get out of the board room and back on the ice. So while the divisive topics still need to be tackled, the smaller ones have to be worked on, too.

The sides still aren't moving closer to a compromise while they talk about other issues.

And that is where the frustration lies. The NHL is waiting for the players' association to make a counterproposal to one the league made in the previous bargaining session more than two weeks ago.

The NHL contends it has stated its position and needs the players' association to make what the league would consider a meaningful counter.

"The whole process is a bit complicated when you're trying to define revenue streams and what should be in and what should be out (of hockey-related revenue)," Steve Fehr said. "It's a bit complicated between the fact that their most recent economic offer says they will go back to the current definitions, yet they are seeking some changes or clarifications in what the current definitions are."

Monetary issues are not expected to come up for discussion in this round of talks. Neither side has indicated it is prepared to make a new offer now regarding how to split up the more than $3 billion annual pot of hockey-related revenue.

Saturday's talks came two days after the league cancelled the remaining preseason games. The regular season is scheduled to start on Oct. 11.

If a deal isn't reached soon, regular-season games will be in danger of being lost. The NHL cancelled the entire 2004-05 season because of a lockout that eventually led to the collective bargaining agreement that expired this month.

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Read More :- "{coyotes} FEHR, BETTMAN HOLD SECOND STRAIGHT DAY OF PRIVATE TALKS"

{coyotes} NHL, NHLPA MAKE PROGRESS ON DRUG TESTING, HEALTH ISSUES

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NEW YORK -- The NHL and the players' association seemingly had a good day on Friday as they returned to the negotiating table.

It just wasn't good enough to bring the sides all that much closer to the end of the lockout that threatens the start of the hockey regular season.

The league and the union got back to bargaining for the first time since players were locked out on Sept. 16, and the sides discussed secondary issues without broaching the big economic divide that really is the essence of the dispute.

"It was a good day," NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said Friday night after the second negotiating session of the day. "I wish we had spent today on what we consider to be the more meaningful issues, but it is what it is."

The sides were together for a total of about five hours -- including a private meeting between Commissioner Gary Bettman and union head Donald Fehr.

A handful of players also took part in the talks.

The groups agreed on issues related to player safety and drug testing, areas that weren't expected to be contentious. They will get back together on Saturday morning, and plan to meet on Sunday, too, but the topics of discussion still don't seem to include the big dollar issues.

"I don't know if I would say significant, but we did seem to make some progress on a number of things. Hopefully we will continue," NHL Players' Association special counsel Steve Fehr said. "There is no plan right now to discuss core economic issues."

And that is where the frustration lies. The NHL is waiting for the players' association to make a counter proposal to one the league made to the union in the previous bargaining session more than two weeks ago.

"We can't make them talk about what they don't want to talk about," Daly said. "In fairness, we do have to cover these issues if we're going to reach an agreement. What we're doing today is important, it's just not the most important things we can be doing.

"We've made at least two consecutive moves in significant dollars in their direction, and they haven't moved a single dollar in our direction since Aug. 4."

Former player Mathieu Schneider, now an NHLPA special assistant to the executive director, said Friday morning that there were agreements on more rigorous drug testing, expanding it to parts of the year during which testing is not currently done.

Neither side sees the use of performance-enhancing drugs as a problem in the NHL.

"We're in agreement that it's not an issue in our sport," Schneider said. "I think it's in the players' best interest as well as the sport to close off any possible time during the year where players could use."

Other topics on tap for Friday and through the weekend are various health and safety issues, time players spend at training facilities, and other non-economic topics.

"We like to say that nothing is agreed to until everything is agreed to, but we've certainly made some headway," Schneider said. "A lot of it was done previous to this morning. We're taking notes of where we stand. I would say that we have a lot of mutual ground that we have found agreement on."

It is not impossible that monetary issues will come up for discussion in this round of talks, they just aren't scheduled. Neither side has indicated it is prepared to make a new offer now regarding how to split up the more than $3 billion annual pot of hockey-related revenue.

"In general, when you're dealing with collective bargaining, when you start to have agreements on smaller issues, it can lead to bigger issues," Schneider said, "but it's still too early to say."

These are the first talks since the lockout was put in place on Sept. 16 and they came a day after the league cancelled the remaining pre-season games. The regular season is to start Oct. 11.

If a deal isn't reached soon, regular-season games will be in danger of being lost. The NHL cancelled the entire 2004-05 season because of a lockout that eventually led to the collective bargaining agreement that expired this month.

"The calendar continues to tick along," Daly said. "My guess is as time goes on, regular-season games are at risk. I don't think it can be any more urgent than where we are now. We've had that level of urgency for a long time. In some respects you can meet all you want, but if there is no compromise or no movement or no new proposals I am not sure at the end of the day what you're meeting over.

"There is a very high degree of urgency certainly on our side. I can't speak for their side, but I am sure they would tell you there is a degree of urgency there, too."

Steve Fehr contended that the players' association is willing to discuss any issues at any time to try to make a deal soon.

"We can discuss the core issues whenever they want to do it," he said. "Bargaining is not ping pong. There are no rules on who has to serve.

"I don't want to use the adjective optimistic, but it was a productive discussion. We had a good session and hopefully it will continue and build momentum."

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{coyotes} Donald Fehr, NHL Commissioner Bettman meet again

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NEW YORK (AP) -- NHL Players' Association head Donald Fehr and NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman held a second round of private talks on Saturday in an effort to move closer to an agreement that would end the ongoing lockout.

While negotiating teams from the union and the league discussed definitions of what makes up hockey-related revenue - the pool of money the sides are trying to figure out how to split up - Fehr and Bettman talked about the differences that are keeping the sides apart.

''I spent a few minutes with Gary talking about the overall situation, and we agreed to keep in touch,'' Fehr said Saturday outside of the NHL's New York office. ''I am sure we will talk again (Sunday). I don't know whether will meet again (Sunday). That remains to be seen.

''I am not going to talk about the specifics, but in general we're trying to discuss how do we find a way to make an agreement. How do we bridge the gap on the major issues that are between us.''

The sides met for about four hours before finishing for the day. They agreed to meet again on Sunday.

They talked for a second straight day on matters separate from the core economic issues that ultimately will have to be hammered out. In the recently expired collective bargaining agreement between the league and the union, the players received a 57 percent share of hockey-related revenue.

The NHL wants to cut the number down to under 50 percent in the new deal. The league imposed a lockout on Sept. 16, when the previous agreement ran out, and the sides didn't meet again until Friday.

''Their position on the big stuff has been that a major move consists of changing the players' share from a reduction of 24 percent to 17 1/2 percent,'' Fehr said. ''Our initial proposal made a move in their direction. We have amplified that by giving them several different ideas to consider about how to lengthen the agreement to how to be more in line with what they wanted.''

Fehr said discussing what exactly makes up hockey-related revenue is significant, because that will determine how much money is there to be divided.

Some progress was made on Friday on secondary issues related to player safety and drug testing, areas that weren't expected to be contentious. The league and union held two sessions then that totaled about five hours and included an initial meeting between Bettman and Fehr.

''I wish we had spent (Friday) on what we consider to be the more meaningful issues, but it is what it is,'' NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said on Friday. ''We really need to hear from the players' association on those. We need some kind of sign that they are prepared to compromise their economic position because we haven't had that since Aug. 14.

''We'll see if we get there.''

At least they got back to talking - which hadn't happened since a few days before the NHL locked out its players.

''It was a good day,'' Daly said. ''We went through a lot of the areas we'd covered over the summer. We started closing off some agreements in some areas, and some continued areas of disagreements in others. It's part of the process.''

All of the issues, big and small, must be ironed out before hockey can get out of the board room and back on the ice. So while the divisive topics still need to be tackled, the smaller ones have to be worked on, too.

''I don't want to use the adjective optimistic, but it was a productive discussion,'' NHL Players' Association special counsel Steve Fehr said on Friday. ''We had a good session, and hopefully it will continue and build momentum.''

The sides still aren't moving closer to a compromise while they talk about other issues.

And that is where the frustration lies. The NHL is waiting for the players' association to make a counterproposal to one the league made in the previous bargaining session more than two weeks ago.

''I don't think it's anybody's turn,'' Donald Fehr said Saturday. ''If they have a good idea, I assume they will tell us. If we do, too, I certainly will not stand on ceremony.''

But the NHL contends it has stated its position and needs the players' association to make what the league would consider a meaningful counter.

''We can't make them talk about what they don't want to talk about,'' Daly said. ''In fairness, we do have to cover these issues if we're going to reach an agreement. What we're doing today is important, it's just not the most important things we can be doing.

''We've made at least two consecutive moves in significant dollars in their direction, and they haven't moved a single dollar in our direction since Aug. 4.''

Former player Mathieu Schneider, now an NHLPA special assistant to the executive director, said Friday morning that there were agreements on more rigorous drug testing, expanding it to parts of the year during which testing is not currently done.

Neither side sees the use of performance-enhancing drugs as a problem in the NHL.

''We're in agreement that it's not an issue in our sport,'' Schneider said. ''I think it's in the players' best interest as well as the sport to close off any possible time during the year where players could use.''

Monetary issues are not expected to come up for discussion in this round of talks. Neither side has indicated it is prepared to make a new offer now regarding how to split up the more than $3 billion annual pot of hockey-related revenue.

''In general, when you're dealing with collective bargaining, when you start to have agreements on smaller issues, it can lead to bigger issues,'' Schneider said, ''but it's still too early to say.''

Saturday's talks came two days after the league canceled the remaining preseason games. The regular season is scheduled to start on Oct. 11.

If a deal isn't reached soon, regular-season games will be in danger of being lost. The NHL canceled the entire 2004-05 season because of a lockout that eventually led to the collective bargaining agreement that expired this month.

''The calendar continues to tick along,'' Daly said. ''My guess is as time goes on, regular-season games are at risk. I don't think it can be any more urgent than where we are now. We've had that level of urgency for a long time. In some respects you can meet all you want, but if there is no compromise or no movement or no new proposals I am not sure at the end of the day what you're meeting over.

''There is a very high degree of urgency certainly on our side. I can't speak for their side, but I am sure they would tell you there is a degree of urgency there, too.''

Steve Fehr contended that the players' association is willing to discuss any issues at any time to try to make a deal soon.

''We can discuss the core issues whenever they want to do it,'' he said. ''Bargaining is not ping pong. There are no rules on who has to serve.''

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Friday, 28 September 2012

{coyotes} Jamison close to keeping Coyotes at Jobing.com Arena

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GLENDALE, Ariz. -- Glendale and potential Phoenix Coyotes buyer Greg Jamison appear to be at or near an agreement on a renegotiated deal to keep the hockey team at Jobing.com Arena.

Interim City Manager Horatio Skeete "will present the final agreed-upon restructuring terms" to elected officials on Tuesday, according to a workshop agenda posted on Friday.

The City Council could not vote on a renegotiated deal Tuesday as workshops are only for discussion. The next regularly scheduled council meeting is Oct. 9. A vote would be required at some point if there is anything that changes either party's obligations.

City leaders in June had signed off on a 20-year deal with Jamison that had the city paying him an average $15 million annually for arena management. By August, the council directed Skeete to renegotiate for a better deal. They wanted to reduce payments in the early years of the deal.

Glendale is faced with a potential $22 million to $25 million budget hole if voters in November approve a ballot initiative to repeal a temporary sales-tax hike.

A city spokeswoman would not comment Friday other than to say that Skeete is still working on the deal. Jamison did not immediately return a call for comment.

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{coyotes} Ex-coach Bob Francis now fighting for quality of life

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SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. -- Step after clunky step, Bob Francis arrives for his morning workout.

He grits his teeth. He jerks his walker forward, followed by an awkward swing of the leg.

His body has atrophied. His balance and equilibrium are gone.

The former Phoenix Coyotes coach can no longer stand on his own two feet.

Onlookers at a Scottsdale health club try not to stare. But his determination is both inspiring and heartbreaking. Especially for those who recognize the face, the mustache, the man who was once named best coach in the NHL.

"People here, they're all curious," said Francis, 53. "They don't want to ask, but they want to know: Were you in a serious car accident? Do you have MS (multiple sclerosis)? Do you have brain function problems?

"It's a long process trying to explain everything. No, I wasn't in a serious car accident. No, I'm not dying. I wish I had an explanation."

Looking at the withered coach, it's easy to believe in cursed hockey franchises. Francis is a recovering alcoholic who lost his first wife and his career. As a player, he suffered too many concussions to count, likely triggering his current condition.

Now, he is searching for answers, struggling to regain some quality of life, pushing that walker down the jagged path of life.

"As many times as I've cursed this walker out, the truth is, I need it," Francis said. "If I'm not leaning on something, I'm down."

Under pressure

Maybe all of his issues run together, converging like powerful currents.

Francis is the son of New York Rangers' legend Emile Francis, a hockey Hall of Famer. His dream was to score a goal in Madison Square Garden, where his father was revered. Clearly, he felt pressure to follow in the massive paternal footsteps.

"I only scored two (goals) in my career, but the last one was for Detroit in Madison Square Garden," he said. "I went back to the bench and couldn't believe what just happened. The moral of the story: There's nothing wrong with dreaming, but don't limit your dreams. Because once you acquire it, where do you go from there?"

To even get a taste of the NHL, Francis had to play like a pit bull. He was undersized (5-9) in stature, and cursed by an oversized heart. It led him into corners and battles he had no business fighting.

He is paying for that today.

"As a player, I remember being knocked out cold when I separated my shoulder," Francis said. "When I came to, I was on a gurney in the hospital, and they were trying to jam my shoulder back into place. Another time, I was hit into the boards and swallowed my tongue. I was unconscious at that point, too."

After just 14 NHL games, Francis was done. He reset his goals to be a head coach by the age of 40. He missed by one year, but made an instant impact with the Coyotes.

He led the team to the playoffs twice in his first three years, but dealt with the same organizational instability that exists today.

Was pressure a tipping point? Was it the alcohol? Did one precede the other?

The physical decline began in Francis' final season with the Coyotes. He started to feel a loss of balance. He became wobbly on his skates. He was self-medicating by then, and rumors of alcohol abuse were following in his wake. His life was spinning out of control.

When he was fired in February 2004, his 165 wins were most in franchise history. Yet he never received another offer from an NHL club. In 2006, he went to coach in Helsinki, and didn't last the season.

"Yeah, I was drinking too much," he said.

Like most alcoholics, he just hid it very well.

Francis says he has been sober for one year now. He says he has a "great sponsor" who knows every dark alley in Francis' soul. But much damage was done along the way.

"I am not proud of it," Francis said. "But I have addressed it and eliminated it. And to me, it's given me a whole different list of priorities in life.

"Where I was getting out of control with the alcohol was the isolation. My three kids were up and gone, and my (first) wife worked long hours. I had too much time on my hands, and wasn't occupying that time in a better manner."

Today, Francis is happily remarried. He lives with his 20-year-old son, a former hockey player who retired following his own history with concussion and shoulder problems. His daughters are 25 and 24, living and working together in Los Angeles.

They are all part of his life, part of his support group, and part of what keeps him moving forward.

"I didn't realize the damage I was doing to them," Francis said. "The thing that hurt most going through the process was the regret they felt for not doing more for me in my bleakest, darkest moments. That hits home. They resent themselves for something they didn't do to help? You couldn't do any more damage to your own kids than making them feel that way."

No relief

Unfortunately, there is no 12-step fix for his medical troubles. Francis has had three back surgeries. He has two plates in his back. He has had MRIs on "every inch of my body."

He has undergone CAT scans, blood tests and neurological tests that required 35 different needles. He had to install rails in his old house. Then he had to sell that house and move to a place without stairs.Slowly, he is beginning to believe that part of his brain has been damaged irreparably.

"Unless you experience it yourself, it's mind-blowing," Francis said. "I was living a physical, normal life, working out every day, hiking three times a week. You take those simple things for granted, things like just getting up and down, going to the bathroom in the middle of the night or getting the mail in the morning.

"I mean, just taking a shower, closing your eyes and trying to shampoo your hair ... you're all disoriented."

The uncertainty is even worse. He doesn't know if he can get better or if it's all downhill from here. His goal is to walk again on his own, but he is also a hard-nosed realist.

"I was very fortunate with the run I had, and I had everything," Francis said. "But I wasn't happy. Why, I didn't know. Now, I do have that happiness. It starts with being able to live with yourself and your conscience.

"That doesn't come in the form of a paycheck, trophies or a bank account. That comes with being comfortable in your own skin. I have that right now. I just want to get some quality of life back."

This is all so sad. Ten years ago, I sat in his office after Francis, then 43, was named Coach of the Year. He was giddy with achievement, but filled with superstitious anxiety. He worried about the curse of the Jack Adams Award, about some rash of bad luck that seemed to follow the winners.

"Kind of came to fruition, didn't it?" he said, smiling.

Forging ahead

Today, Francis has been stripped of pride and ego. He is a cautionary tale for all hockey players, a story that is really no different from thousands of football players dealing with early on-set dementia.

His former players think of him only in the highest terms.

"Anyone who ever played for Bobby knows he cared more about them as a person than he did as a player," Coyotes captain Shane Doan said. "He was a really good coach. You don't win Coach of the Year by accident. He read his room as well as anybody."

If the Coyotes' ownership situation ever gets settled, it would be a heartfelt gesture to find some level of employment for Francis, if only to provide him with a sense of purpose. There must be something he could add to the mix.

But Francis isn't worried about employment these days. He just wants to stay clean, sober, positive and working toward a solution. He just wants a little hope, and he'll keep that walker moving, step after clunky step.

"I used to pray for everyone but myself," Francis said. "I thought it was hypocritical to ask for anything yourself. But I'll admit it: I pray for myself nowadays."

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{coyotes} NHL, NHLPA MAKE PROGRESS ON DRUG TESTING, HEALTH ISSUES

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NEW YORK -- The NHL and the players' association agreed on issues related to player safety and drug testing Friday, but the core economic divide that is preventing an end to the league's latest lockout was not even on the agenda.

The sides returned to the bargaining table after more than two weeks apart, and some progress was made in about two hours of discussions during a morning session.

"You would absolutely hope that things progress and kind of catch fire, but right now we're just going to take it one step at a time and try to come to an agreement on as many issues as possible," said former player Mathieu Schneider, now an NHLPA special assistant to the executive director. "We're taking baby steps right now."

NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman took part in Friday morning's talks, but union head Donald Fehr wasn't present. He is expected to join the discussions during the course of the three-day meeting.

After breaking for lunch, the sides were expected to reconvene later Friday and then again on Saturday and Sunday.

"It says that both sides are committed to getting back to the table and working," Schneider said.

Schneider added that there were agreements on more rigorous drug testing, including increasing it to parts of the year during which testing is not currently done.

Both sides are on the same page in believing that the use of performance-enhancing drugs is not a problem in the NHL.

"We're in agreement that it's not an issue in our sport," Schneider said. "I think it's in the players' best interest as well as the sport to close off any possible time during the year where players could use."

Other topics on tap for Friday and through the weekend are various health and safety issues, time players spend at training facilities, and other non-economic topics.

"We like to say that nothing is agreed to until everything is agreed to, but we've certainly made some headway," Schneider said. "A lot of it was done previous to this morning. We're taking notes of where we stand. I would say that we have a lot of mutual ground that we have found agreement on."

It is not impossible that monetary issues will come up for discussion in this round of talks, they just aren't scheduled. Neither side has indicated it is prepared to make a new offer now regarding how to split up the more than $3 billion annual pot of hockey-related revenue.

"In general, when you're dealing with collective bargaining, when you start to have agreements on smaller issues, it can lead to bigger issues," Schneider said, "but it's still too early to say."

These are the first talks since the lockout was put in place on Sept. 16 and they came a day after the league cancelled the remaining pre-season games. The regular season is to start Oct. 11.

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Re: offical arrl numbers count

It was like 6 renewals. 12$ is 1/2 the cost of the PO pox for 6 months :)

On 09/28/2012 11:14 AM, Orion Thrower wrote:
> Wow....I think what we need to do is some advertising for people to
> start going through us to do their renewals and new memberships. We get
> $2 for renewals and I can't remember what the number was for the new
> memberships.
>
> On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Vinnie Chapman <n1lqj@cox.net
> <mailto:n1lqj@cox.net>> wrote:
>
> 12 out of 25 for 48%. Britt and I can renew early next month. This
> will change the count to 14/25 or 56% so I think we have meet the
> criteria. Since last year our numbers have changed from 11 ARRL
> members out of 21 voting members.
>
> Membership has increased by 20% and ARRL membership has increased by
> 27% (per captia)
>
> As always I encourage members to join the ARRL. We will update our
> ARRL info in October.
>
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Vinnie Chapman,
> N1LQJ
>
> Sent from my Ubuntu Desktop
>
>
>
>
> --
> Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that
> you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines.
> Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
> Explore. Dream. Discover.*/Mark Twain/*
>
> KE7VLC Amateur Extra Class
> Orion Thrower
>


--
Regards,

Vinnie Chapman,
N1LQJ

Sent from my Ubuntu Desktop
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Re: offical arrl numbers count

Wow....I think what we need to do is some advertising for people to start going through us to do their renewals and new memberships.  We get $2 for renewals and I can't remember what the number was for the new memberships.

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Vinnie Chapman <n1lqj@cox.net> wrote:
12 out of 25 for 48%.  Britt and I can renew early next month.  This will change the count to 14/25 or 56% so I think we have meet the criteria.  Since last year our numbers have changed from 11 ARRL members out of 21 voting members.

Membership has increased by 20% and ARRL membership has increased by 27% (per captia)

As always I encourage members to join the ARRL.  We will update our ARRL info in October.


--
Regards,

Vinnie Chapman,
N1LQJ

Sent from my Ubuntu Desktop




--
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.Mark Twain

KE7VLC Amateur Extra Class
Orion Thrower

Read More :- "Re: offical arrl numbers count"

offical arrl numbers count

12 out of 25 for 48%. Britt and I can renew early next month. This
will change the count to 14/25 or 56% so I think we have meet the
criteria. Since last year our numbers have changed from 11 ARRL members
out of 21 voting members.

Membership has increased by 20% and ARRL membership has increased by 27%
(per captia)

As always I encourage members to join the ARRL. We will update our ARRL
info in October.


--
Regards,

Vinnie Chapman,
N1LQJ

Sent from my Ubuntu Desktop
Read More :- "offical arrl numbers count"

Thursday, 27 September 2012

Granite Reef Recreation Site

I got my call back from the Tonto Forest Ranger HQ. We can use the Granite Reef Recreation Site off Power Rd. We can use generators but no more than two running at the same time. We can't tie antennas to the trees, but we can drive stakes as long as we pull them out when we leave.
I think if we stay away from the rest rooms with our antennas we should clear any underground pipes with water or power.
Every car parked at the site must have a Tonto pass showing in the window they cost $6.00 and can be bought at most gas stations and stores in and around Mesa. I passed around pictures at the meeting but I don't think Orion saw them he was running the meeting at the time. This Saturday is a free day at this site so if anyone wants to look it over you you can park for free. Granite Reef is the lake area where all of the canals that run around the valley are fed from so there is fishing and boating allowed for those who don't want to play with radios.

I think my Arrl membership is up Dec.30 but I will be renewing it before then.

Dennis Burks
KE7YLV
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{coyotes} NHL'S CBA TALKS TO RESUME WITH THREE DAYS OF MEETINGS

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The NHL's collective bargaining talks are set to restart with a session that is likely to run through the weekend.

The league and NHL Players' Association have blocked off Friday, Saturday and Sunday for meetings in New York after spending more than two weeks away from the bargaining table.

The talks resume with the scheduled Oct. 11 start to the regular season drawing near. A deal would likely have to be struck by the middle of next week in order for the league to avoid the cancellation of meaningful games.

The NHL and NHLPA last met for formal negotiations on Sept. 12 -- three days before the lockout was enacted -- and exchanged proposals on the economics that govern the sport. Both of those offers have since expired.

As part of their decision to resume negotiations, the sides agreed to revisit the secondary issues that will have to be ironed out in the new CBA. Those include, but aren't limited to, grievance procedures, travel, medical care, and pensions and benefits.

There was a small hint of optimism in the air with talks set to resume. On Monday, deputy commissioner Bill Daly told reporters he wanted the reopening of talks to happen this week.

"Obviously, we've got to talk before you can get a deal, so I think it's important to get the talks going again," said Daly. "But you also have to have something to say. I think it's fair to say we feel like we need to hear from the players' association in a meaningful way because I don't think that they've really moved off their initial proposal, which was made more than a month ago now."

A source indicated that the union wasn't planning to head back to the bargaining table with a proposal in hand.

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{coyotes} NHL cancels remaining preseason schedule

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NEW YORK -- The National Hockey League announced today the cancellation of the remainder of the 2012 preseason schedule.

The cancellation of the preseason schedule was necessary because of the absence of a Collective Bargaining Agreement between the NHL Players' Association and the NHL.

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